First Generation Firebird-L Mailing List Re: Fuel Line Question by "saltydog" <saltyd@home.com> Re: Undercarrage color by "Glenn Uettwiller" <birdman@gdi.net> Re: 1969 Firebird Trans Am for sale. [Details] by "Glenn Uettwiller" <birdman@gdi.net> Thermostat by "Dan Lawrence" <danl@fdn.com> Radiator and grill bracket by "Chris Porter" <fxstsb@pop.sttl.uswest.net> Re: Firebird Bulbs by <SteveBrady1@aol.com> Re: 400 Trunk Emblem by <SteveBrady1@aol.com> Is there anyone else out there from Minnesota by <Birddog321@aol.com> Re: Part availablity (floorpan related) by <JGeigel@aol.com> Re: 68 conv top boot clips by "Charles Hazelton" <chuckhazelton@surfree.com> 110 fuel some are referring to? by "Chris Porter" <fxstsb@pop.sttl.uswest.net> Re: Fuel Line Question by "x1r1 x" <x1r1@hotmail.com> RE: Which shifter for my 700R4? by "x1r1 x" <x1r1@hotmail.com> Re: Horns by "x1r1 x" <x1r1@hotmail.com> Re: Cheviac or Ponchette? Now 2004R? by "x1r1 x" <x1r1@hotmail.com> Re: Cheviac or Ponchette? by "x1r1 x" <x1r1@hotmail.com> Re Muncie shifter by "Gary Patrick" <Gary@tcworks.net>
(back) Subject: Re: Fuel Line Question From: "saltydog" <saltyd@home.com> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 19:17:06 -0600 Keith it's not really a vapor return line. If you start the car without = the hose on you will see that fuel pours out with a good bit of pressure = behind it. It is just a return line. I think you probably have heard the term = vapor return line, because in the 70's the car makers did start using a vapor return line that goes through a charcoal canister and back to the tank. If you have ever seen one with the charcoal canister that has come apart inside, its a real mess to clean that charcoal out of the line. Anyway I don't mean to correct you so to say only want others to know exactly what you mean when you tell them. Now I am sounding guilty to myself uh oh.
(back) Subject: Re: Undercarrage color From: "Glenn Uettwiller" <birdman@gdi.net> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 21:28:10 -0500 Jim, I just got on-line after 3 days and saw your first letter, plus a couple of responses. Those of us who have been around these cars since new know the truth - they had a heavy dose of the finish color on the underside. It was more like a super-heavy overspray than an actual attempt to make it like the underhood of a 60's MoPar. On my 69 Sprint convertible, I disassembled the car to the bare shell in 1978, and was able to remove all the Limelight Green finish with steel wool and Brillo pads. What was left was the satin-finish black, similar to the firewall. I have parted a few cars, restored or semi-restored a couple others, and always saw the same thing. Having lost track of how many early F-cars I've seen in 30 years around the automotive world (business, hobby, and car shows), I would surmise that your car was the same way. I've had a couple of red cars, 68 and 69, and they were as you describe yours. The only time I had a conflict about this was at the POCI Gaithersburg MD meet in the early 90's, when a 69 Trans Am came in on a trailer (not quite finished) and the bottom, including the rear wheelwells, was nearly as perfect (white) as the exterior paint. It was a 303 Tunnel Port Ram Air V car, and the owner was very adamant that the car came that way when new. I never saw anything from him or anybody else to document such a thing, but the owner was almost belligerent. They say it is easy to tell who is the wrong one in any argument - it's the one who hollers loudest and longest! Glenn aka birdman Jimc2002@aol.com wrote: > > First Generation Firebird-L Mailing List > = ......................................................................... > With no replys this may not have made it out so I'll try again. > > I need some advice on the "factory color" of the undercarrage of '68 > Firebirds. As I look at the underside of most restored late 60's GM = cars I > find that they are painted black. My '68 still has the original factory > paint, though with 33 years of Illinois roads and wear, and the color is = a > red, very much like the solor red (code R) of the rest of the car. I've = had > the car since 1969 so I know it's the original color. One restoration = group > says my car probably has a red primer that Pontiac used at the time and > another restoration person believes GM did some different things back = then > and probably sprayed the entire body top and bottom with the same solar = red > while they were in production. I expect the red primer explanation is = more > likely. Does anyone know for sure? What colors are the undercarrages = of > your Gen 1's? If there is a red color almost the same as the solar red, = does > anyone know where I can purchase it (sprayer or arrosol application)? > > Jim > '68 400 HO Convert
(back) Subject: Re: 1969 Firebird Trans Am for sale. [Details] From: "Glenn Uettwiller" <birdman@gdi.net> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 21:40:34 -0500 It's old news, John! GM introduced tilts in about 1963, and they were readily available as an option in all 1967 through 1969 Firebirds and Camaros. Of course, the 69 was the year that the ignition key cylinder got moved to the column, so they're different than the 67-68. What I AM very sure about is that very late production 1969 Trans Ams came with a 1970-style Formula wheel, with the early style "bird" emblem (low wings) in the horn cap. Keep in mind that 69 F-cars continued to be produced into the 1970 production of all other GM car lines. I have seem MANY late 69 Camaros and Firebirds with the blue decal inside the driver's door, that stated the emissions were current for the month/year the car was built and had the VIN on it. Glenn aka birdman Studderin@aol.com wrote: > > And did anybody notice the TILT steering column and the formula Wheel? > I thought that steering wheel was only available on > 70-81 T/A's > 70-72 GTO's > Not 69????????? > And a tilt?????????? > > John Costello >
(back) Subject: Thermostat From: "Dan Lawrence" <danl@fdn.com> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 20:46:36 -0500 What do you guys think about putting a lower temp thermostat in the poncho for over heating. Say from 180 to 160. I plan on replacing my radiator and I thought the 160 temp might help too. Also, what is that 110 fuel some are referring to? I have 10.5 compression and I am dying for some octane. Always a pleasure talking to the experts. Thanks in advance. Dan Florida/coupe/428
(back) Subject: Radiator and grill bracket From: "Chris Porter" <fxstsb@pop.sttl.uswest.net> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 17:47:44 -0800 1- Asked this a little bit ago, got no answer. Has anyone used one of the "Desert Cooler" radiator's offered by Ames ? Did it work well ? 2- Anybody have the bracket's to hold the bottom of the grill's in place ? Thanks Chris `68 350 H.O. Drop-top
(back) Subject: Re: Firebird Bulbs From: <SteveBrady1@aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 21:15:38 EST Thanks, that is a big help, I'm going to run out and replace all my bulbs. Steve Brady 68 400 Convertible http://members.nbci.com/srb/
(back) Subject: Re: 400 Trunk Emblem From: <SteveBrady1@aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 21:17:04 EST Great! Now I can drill the holes before I prep my body for painting! Steve Brady 68 400 Convertible http://members.nbci.com/srb/
(back) Subject: Is there anyone else out there from Minnesota From: <Birddog321@aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 22:01:30 EST Is there anyone else out there from Minnesota? How about any clubs or = shows in the area? I'm pretty sure there is a Camaro club and a GTO club in the = area but I haven't seen many Firebirds around. I know at one time someone was compiling a list. How can I get a copy? I've been watching this list off and on for a while and you guys are = great. I'm in the process of stripping off paint and filler and replacing bad = metal. I've got a small problem on the very edge of the cowl apron (I think = that's the proper name, it's the sheet metal between the front hood and = windshield) where there is some rust about a quarter inch in. It will tuck under the chrome trim but I'm afraid it might spread and wreck my paint job that I = hope to have done this spring. Does anyone have any thoughts on how best to = deal with this. I'd be interested in hearing your input. Larry 68 400 conv
(back) Subject: Re: Part availablity (floorpan related) From: <JGeigel@aol.com> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 22:12:17 EST John, The bottom half of mine was rotted. I made a new bottom half and grafted = it on. Darn hard to tell it wasn't original. If you need one, your best = bet is to call someone like Franks in L.A. and have them cut one off of a = rust free car. There are no repros as far as I know. Joe Geigel
(back) Subject: Re: 68 conv top boot clips From: "Charles Hazelton" <chuckhazelton@surfree.com> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 20:07:17 -0800 Now I know why I was having such a hard time figuring out how to attach = the clips. APE forgot to send the U shaped retainer clips. Having never seen one, I didn't realize a part was missing. Thanks to Jim for sending me a picture of the procedure. These clips have a metal re-inforcing gizmo attached to the back of the plastic part. But they are supposed to come = with the retainer also. Now I only feel half as stupid. Thanks guys, Chuck. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoff Martin" <Geoff@firstgenfirebird.org> To: "First Generation Firebird-L" <Firebird-L@oakmediacreations.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 6:40 AM Subject: Re: 68 conv top boot clips > First Generation Firebird-L Mailing List > = ......................................................................... > Chuck, does your kit have metal clips separate from the plastic pieces? > It has been several years since I put mine together but I can go out and > look to see if I can remember how. I know I did not leave enough room > for the two snaps on each side (put these on last).
(back) Subject: 110 fuel some are referring to? From: "Chris Porter" <fxstsb@pop.sttl.uswest.net> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 21:28:46 -0800 Up here in the Seattle area, you can go to Unocal 76 gas station and get "trick" racing fuel ( $5.00 a gallon ). Or you can also go to any airport and still get Aviation fuel. You must put it into a container, and wait until you get home to put it into your tank. And I think it's still "leaded", not sure. Chris `68 350 H.O. Drop-top
(back) Subject: Re: Fuel Line Question From: "x1r1 x" <x1r1@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 00:12:31 -0800 Nobody has touched on the reason only some cars have this feature. a/c, 350HO, and 400. I'd wager underhood temperature. I am considering using the charcoal can on my EFI. Might help reduce gas odors on a hot day. I suspect the effect on performance is negligible, = and it is not much weight. I hope when I drop my tank, it has the return line = fitting....that would greatly simplify my plumbing(if it is big enough). >From: "saltydog" <saltyd@home.com> >......................................................................... >Keith it's not really a vapor return line. If you start the car without = the >hose on you will see that fuel pours out with a good bit of pressure = behind >it. It is just a return line. I think you probably have heard the term >vapor >return line, because in the 70's the car makers did start using a vapor >return line that goes through a charcoal canister and back to the tank. = If >you have ever seen one with the charcoal canister that has come apart >inside, its a real mess to clean that charcoal out of the line. Anyway I >don't mean to correct you so to say only want others to know exactly what >you mean when you tell them. Now I am sounding guilty to myself uh oh. > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
(back) Subject: RE: Which shifter for my 700R4? From: "x1r1 x" <x1r1@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 00:22:24 -0800 My v-matic style Hurst shifter that came with the th350 rrequired I file = an extra notch in the guide plate to have a detent for first gear. For those with column shifters, the arm on the steering column must be lengthened about an inch to have enough throw. I do not know if you can = fit the shift indicator from a newer car. To help maintain an original apearance, you could use the TH400 WOT switch = instead of the pedal mounted one found in some cars with original 700R. Rowan May try the ugly 'Vette shifter >From: Mace <macef@optonline.net> >......................................................................... >Kevin, > I just installed a B&M Megashifter in my 69 for my 2004R. Not only >does >it work great, it look just as well. The console version for the 70-76 = that >comes with it, just covers the console hole with just a small gap on each >side. Not enough to even notice. This is the shifter to go with. In >addition, I took the console cover apart to mount the console bracket = that >came with the shifter inbetween the lower and upper console. This enabled = >me >to secure the chrome cover that holds the boot in place without = butchering >the console itself...Good Luck >Mace >69 355 Drop Top > >Roy, >What type of modifications did you make to fit it in the console? How = did >it turn out? >Any help is appreciated. > >Thanks, >Kevin > >-------------------------------------- >I used the B&M on the 700r4 I installed in my buddy's 68. It worked = great. >I >modified it to work on the factory console. > >Roy > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
(back) Subject: Re: Horns From: "x1r1 x" <x1r1@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 00:25:46 -0800 See: http://www.cruzers.com/~rowan/images/02%20yeah%20baby%20yeah!.JPG You might have to turn up the brightness of your monitor. Rowan >From: "Keith Donmoyer" <kadonny@hotmail.com> >Sorry guys, I deleted my archive on the horn placement. Can you help >me...anybody have any pics of where the dual horns are mounted and how = the >wiring runs? I know my horns are mounted and wired incorrectly and want = to >get it right. Thanks again in advance. > >Keith >68 H.O> > > ><http://www.recommend-it.com/recommend.RecommendItCGI.fcgi?site=3D110478> > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
(back) Subject: Re: Cheviac or Ponchette? Now 2004R? From: "x1r1 x" <x1r1@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 00:45:09 -0800 look to the bottom of the pan.... if it says METRIC in big bold letters,it is a 200r4. at the bellhousing.... if there are an extra set of bolt holes(in adition to the two pilot = holes), it is 200R4 Multicase and will bolt to both Chevy and BOP engines. The 200R4 pan is very long, and has a second, smaller pan area behind the regular square. 200R4 have no vacuum line or electric carb switch, only a TV cable. The distance from bellhousing to transmount is longer than any other GM transmisson I am aware of. Happy Hunting Rowan >From: hugoba@apcom.com >......................................................................... >Slightly off topic, but, does anyone know which auto tranny came with the = >83 >Pontiac V6's?? >I have a project car that may not go back together but it occurred to me >that >it may have a 2004R in it and it so happens that the previous owner had = it >replaced before abandoning the project. If this is the case, then I'm in >good >shape for my conversion (although the bellhousing may not be correct). >If nothing else, where can one look at the transmission to see what model = # >it >is? > >Hugo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
(back) Subject: Re: Cheviac or Ponchette? From: "x1r1 x" <x1r1@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 01:44:37 -0800 Well hmmm I think I maybe opened Pandoras box. I can put some scattered thoughts out. I've seen peopleon the list saying four grand for a nice rebuild, and my 8.5:1 X5 400motor was hardly worth that. Add to that; my 200R4 needed rebuilt when I got it. Motor Mounts; stock corvette(free) I will weld up a peice of chanell to = pin them to. and 100 hours trying to figure out wiring; I hope not, Based on the HEI principle, TPI requires only 6 wires to the car to run.(We were careful = not to cut any while removing the engine) Reliability; 2 of my 3 chevy motors have a long history of running. 1 ford crank failure ,1volvo threw rod, 1 volvo head gasket, 1 chevy head gasket, 1 poncho timing/crank failure. I'll go with the odds, and $1000 = for nice motor and trany is a good deal. dissappointment; I can always change it back. fuel system; I have all (2 peice) fuel lines from the 'Vete, but may use = a Ford external fuel pump for convenience. crossmember; I'm not clear on the difference between TH350 and TH400 crossmembers....I had to make a custom one for my 200R4. Also the = Corvette uses a different tailhousing, so the trans bolts to a C chanell that bolts = to the tear end. I have another TH700 in case I want to use the standard tailhousing. Speedo; This may be a problem, the computer uses a pulse generator = instead of a speedo cable. I know that a pulse generator can be spliced into the = cable, but there may be a more elegant solution. Really, if you guys want economy and reliability get a honda. If you insist on a chevy, how about a zz502 crate motor? a replacement Honda distributor costs half as much as my motor, and if it overheats once, it = is usualy done for. I'm not fond of them. 502 RamJet Id think about it if I had an extra five or 6 grand, but then I'd get an aftermarket EFI setup on a 400/455. A 350 tpi dog in a heavy car; at least one hundred lbs. lighter than Poncho untill I put in the A/C. Vette radiator is much lighter than stock = too. My 400 did turn out 20MPG on the highway@70. >Tim > I agree with you, on the reliability thing. A rubber hose, starter, >piston, tire, or a brake line doesn't say It's self. > > "Humm? If been on this (old) firebird with a 400 Pontiac for a >year = >now, >I think today I'll spilt in have today." >Or.......... > "Yes, now that my owner put in that NEW reliable 93' TPI with a = >700R4, >I'll last FOREVER, " > And them you go and ruin your whole letter by saying >**If you insist on a chevy, how about a zz502 crate motor?*** >Chevy's SUCKS!!!. >John Costello As an ASE cert. engine management tech, I firmly beleive cars to be = jealous creatures which respond well to love. Disc brakes w/brand new hardware and frontend have been retrofit without regret. 225HP net; Going into a dual exhaust firstgen, I have lilke stage 2 or 3 = exhaust mod, and will have a free flow(read RAM AIR) cold air intake. Roy writes, "I only submitted my comments so that anyone who would be interested on periodic updates on my progress could (and should) email = me": I'm always interested to lear, even If that means there are mistakes I don't get to make for myself. offense; the best defence is a good offence. When I am done, I will be = happy to see any naysayers come get some : ) whew out of breath....Thanks for the feedback Rowan ps...I expect that the engine bay will take more time then the powertrain. >From: "Tom Grzywacz" <ban67shee@hotmail.com> >......................................................................... > >d) sratch my head and stand there like an idiot? > >I would go with D, and you said it first, so I don't feel too bad. I = guess >sometimes practice outweighs theory. To each his own. I say sell the = vette >engine and trans for 3K, add $1000 to 1500 extra for mods (completely new >fuel system, motor/tranny mounts, driveshaft mods and ps/alt bracket >reconfiguration) and 100 hours trying to figure out wiring. Take the = $4000 >and buy yourself a real engine..400 or 455 and get a TBI/fuel injection and >200/700R4 if thats your goal. Just my opinion..CH&%Y engines in ANY = Pontiac >is a disgrace to the car. I believe when you are finally done, all that >time >and money spent will be a . Not knocking you Rowan. I am a >realist, and sometimes great ideas are far more work/trouble than thier >worth. But then again, without new concepts, we would stagnate. I guess I >have reformed into a purist. Any counter strikes? > > Tom > > >......................................................................... > Yesterday, a friend and I went and bought a wrecked '86 Corvette the >guy >we got it from had taken the hood and fenders for his car, and said it >didn't run,but he had started it on carb cleaner, and it sounded good. = We >gave him the thousand bucks he was asking, and he dropped it off at the >shop >my friend works at around 11;00 am. We found a batery, checked the oil = and >water, and plugged in the MAF sensor from the car I ws driving. A few >cranks for oiling,then a puff of carb cleaner, and VROOOM! We bunjie'd >down >the battery and did a few laps around the parking lot. Fast and smooth, >probably a better car than mine. we had a good laugh at the two previous >owners not having figured out how to start it, and got to work. > My friend needed some interior and top parts for his 'vette, so he = busted >into the dash and interior while I got busy in the engine bay. >By 7;30, dead tired and soaking wet from the rain, we were done. >Engine(350TPI) and trans(700R4) with complete(and uncut) wiring harness. >the cleanlieness of the motor(inside anyway) and paint marks on the trans >indicate they were not original(it ran very well...I'm guessing 40-50K on >the motor). sosension assemblys and interior were removed, and there was >not much left. We learned you can cut safety glas with a Sawzall! >Fiberglass cuts even faster. Anyway, I ended up with the motor and = tranny, >radiator, and A/C. I have an A/C firewall for a '68, so I think that is >the >way for me to go. > A bit of cleaning, maybe some fresh gaskets, and remove some duff from >the >wiring harness, and I'll be due for some major decision making. > Do I: >a) set the motor as far back as I can without the HEI hitting anything? >b) position the tranny to work with my driveshaft, and go from there? >c) just put it where the mounts are easy? >d) sratch my head and stand there like an idiot? >I intend to have functional Ram Air, but probably through the grille. >A mass airflow sensor wll have to be found, hopefuly for under $200, I = know >Autozone has some real cheap ones. >The computer may mount above the glovebox. >I'm bummed I have to go to Arziona for a few days around next weekend >instead of working on this, but Its grandma's birthday, and I wouldn't = miss >it. Wish I could take my Bird tho. > Well, thats the state of my project, and I am pretty excited. >Rowan *68 lurking > >_________________________________________________________________ >------------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
(back) Subject: Re Muncie shifter From: "Gary Patrick" <Gary@tcworks.net> Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 06:19:10 -0500 BOB says>> >Another poster mentioned trying to adjust the shifter handle >at the two mounting bolts and see if you can get clearance >that way. Had I thought of that, I would have tried that >first. Bob that would be me. Try to tilt the handle into a forward or backward angle compared to the straight up position that the 1/4 alignment dowel is for. You must reajust the rods for proper throw. all three should line up when in neutral. >The Camaro console has a larger opening that can accommodate >the aftermarket shifter more easily. The 1968 and 1969 Firebird >console has a much smaller shifter opening, with an even smaller >pot metal bezel that makes it even more challenging. The 1967 >cars have a much more forgiving console (identical to same >year Camaro). This may be true with the 68-9 Camaro but not on the 67 Bird/Camaro; with the slider plates you actually have less room compared to the 68-9 = bird. I found this out after trying to put a 67 console in my 68 with the = factory 4 speed shifter. Im sure its worse with the aftermarket Competition Plus which has a larger stick. Gary