First Generation Firebird-L Mailing List RE: Cheviac or Ponchette? by "Slobird" <marcts@ga.prestige.net> PA Birds by "Keith Donmoyer" <kadonny@hotmail.com> PA Birds (South NJ also) by "Keith Donmoyer" <kadonny@hotmail.com> Re: heads 101 by "Frank Zeller" <fzeller@tri-austin.com> Horns by "Keith Donmoyer" <kadonny@hotmail.com> PA Firebirds by "Jason Rogers" <jason.rogers@york.com> PA bird owners must be special (was PA Birds) by "Duane Benedict" <teachers@epix.net> Re: PA Birds-Rich by "Duane Benedict" <teachers@epix.net> Re: Cheviac or Ponchette? by <hugoba@apcom.com> Re: Car in a barn by "ROY D LUMSDEN" <rlumsden@tampabay.rr.com> Re: Cheviac or Ponchette? by "ROY D LUMSDEN" <rlumsden@tampabay.rr.com> Fuel Line question by "Keith Donmoyer" <kadonny@hotmail.com> Re: 1969 Firebird Trans Am for sale. [Details] by "Pete D" <pjd805@yahoo.com> 400 with a bent valve by "larry diede" <ldiede@bangkok.com> Re: Fuel Line question by "Frank Zeller" <fzeller@tri-austin.com>
(back) Subject: RE: Cheviac or Ponchette? From: "Slobird" <marcts@ga.prestige.net> Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 08:23:42 -0500 If you put that motor in you are in for a lot of unexpected pitfalls. My friend did a z28lt1 and took about 2 years to get the bugs worked out. good luck tim
(back) Subject: PA Birds From: "Keith Donmoyer" <kadonny@hotmail.com> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 08:26:43 -0500 Duane, Wilkes Barre/Hazelton is about 1 1/2 hours for me (Pottstown). I know the = area pretty well up there in North PA, went to school in Bloomsburg. OK, updated PA contingency Jason Rogers York Duane Aldrich Lancaster Justin Lancaster Bull D. Poconos Kevin Collegeville Duane Benedict Hallstead (North PA) Keith D. Pottstown I am keeping a master list along with addresses. Justin, I need your last = name, e mail me privately. Kevin, same, need your last name, e mail me. Any other additions??? Keith 68 H.O. kadonny@hotmail.com Subject: Re: PA Birds From: "Duane Benedict" <teachers@epix.net> Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 17:58:56 -0500 Add me to the PA list. Duane Benedict, Hallstead We're in the north country, too. How far is Wilkes-Barre or Hazleton for you guys? -- Duane _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
(back) Subject: PA Birds (South NJ also) From: "Keith Donmoyer" <kadonny@hotmail.com> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 08:43:35 -0500 John, Ok, I'll add you to the list, South NJ is not that far away. I will = check on the Maple Grove thing. Keith 68 H.O. Subject: RE: PA Birds From: "John Clear" <jjclear@my-deja.com> Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 18:10:19 -0800 Guys I'm only a couple hours away in South Jersey. There's a nice Pontiac Meet = in Maple Grove sometime in June. My car won't be ready by then, but I'll = still be going. J. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
(back) Subject: Re: heads 101 From: "Frank Zeller" <fzeller@tri-austin.com> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 08:08:26 -0600 You need a minimum of 9 to 1 compression to make good HP. 9.5 to 1 in the = max you can run on pump gas. You also have to remember that there is a = static compression and dynamic compression (related to you cam duration) = Engines with longer duration cams cam get away with a little higher static = compression. The 6x head is by far the cleanest casting head. In 1973 = Pontiac switched to a highly controlled casting procedures. The "as cast" = intake port is the best. With very little work is will out flow the early = D ports. The 6x head does not suffer from revision at higher lifts 0.470 = and above. You also have to remember that after 30,000 miles of running = rich with that high compression motor it is not uncommon for at least = 0.030 of carbon build up. So you guys that think you getting away with = running that freshly rebuilt high compression motor on pump gas it is just = a mater of time before it starts pinging real bad. I happened to me. >>> ban67shee@hotmail.com 03/04/01 10:52AM >>> First Generation Firebird-L Mailing List .......................................................................... Tom, there are 2 different versions of 6 x head. One for 400s and one for 455. They likewise have 2 different chamber sizes. My answer to Johns question was one to clear up any confusion on port flow. There is significant CR differences especially if you have a set of 455 6 x heads on a 400. = However i think john was asking if the difference in port flow would warrant a change.I still say the 6 x is about the best street engine head for todays = gas.True CR really wakes an engine up but at the cost of octane boosters = or av gas blends. Who wants to cruise only 100 miles from home because they cant get gas to run on. just my 2 cents Gary The 6X-4 and 6X-8 were run on 350 and 400 engines, not 455,s. 6X = heads came in chamber cc's from 92cc (350 6X-4) to the dog 110cc (+or- 5 cc)6X-8 = 400. The 6X-4 are run on 455's as is (without milling to reduce chamber = cc. To use on a 400, they have to be milled to raise CR above 8.5. They are = run now because they are plentiful. You speak of port flow..wouldn't any head flow the same on a 400 or 455? The flow of any head is a constant. Port flow (intake and exhaust) is = nearly identical to a #16 head. I agree with you Gary that the 6X-4 92 cc (350) head is a great, inexpensive street head that, with some milling and = port work, would do anyone well. If you want to run the 16's and are around 9.75 to 10 to 1 CR and can't find a place to blend, run the 94 but dont whomp on throttle (precursor to detonation). I am running a 10.9 CR 428 and need only to run = 14 gallons 94 and 4 gallons turbo blue (110) I could get away with 15/3 = but I like the smell. This CR subject is taboo..If anyone does thier homework, = running a higher CR engine is no problem. I think this subject is better left to the experienced enging builders, and not the novice..hate for someone to loose a piston this early in season!
(back) Subject: Horns From: "Keith Donmoyer" <kadonny@hotmail.com> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 09:11:44 -0500 Sorry guys, I deleted my archive on the horn placement. Can you help me...anybody have any pics of where the dual horns are mounted and how the = wiring runs? I know my horns are mounted and wired incorrectly and want = to get it right. Thanks again in advance. Keith 68 H.O> _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
(back) Subject: PA Firebirds From: "Jason Rogers" <jason.rogers@york.com> Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 09:12:20 -0500 I would like to compile a list of people from PA that have 1st gens. Here is what I have so far: Jason Rogers York, PA 1967 Firebird 400, 1969 Firebird 400, White jprogers@cyberia.com or jason.rogers@york.com (please use first address = when replying directly) Duane Benedict Hazelton, PA teachers@epix.net Justin ? Lancaster, PA ? Duane Aldrich Lancaster, PA ? John Clear South Jersey jjclear@my-deja.com Rich Durham Weatherly, PA Bull@ccomm.com Please fill in your shtuff and I'll try and get us all together. I attended the Pontiac on the Grove at Maple Grove last year in Reading = PA. I raced in Class III and got the bye first round. This year it is July 29th, info here http://www.maplegroveraceway.com/events/pontiacs.html I think this is the best chance to get us all together. Here is Outlaw Pontiac racing schedule for 2k1 at Mason Dixon, in = Hagerstown Maryland: Race Dates April 8 May 20 June 10 July 8 Aug 5 Sept 16 Oct 7 Oct 21 Rain Dates April 22 June 3 June 24 July 15 Sept 2 Sept 23 Oct 14 Oct 28 Here is the Outlaw Pontiac Racer's Association main page here http://www.outlawpontiacs.com/main.php3 Jason OPRA Member "For those that live the legend" 1967 Firebird 400 (resto) 1969 Firebird 400 (daily driver) "Drive it like you stole it"
(back) Subject: PA bird owners must be special (was PA Birds) From: "Duane Benedict" <teachers@epix.net> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 09:30:10 -0500 Keith: Great minds do think alike, and apparently own the same cars. :-) My wife and I are both Bloom grads. Anyone else attend Bluumsburg University (or maybe 'State College' or 'Normal School')? -- Duane ---------------------------------------------------------- Ephesians 2:8,9 http://home.epix.net/~teachers See the baby at http://home.epix.net/~teachers/baby.html ---------------------------------------------------------- Keith Donmoyer wrote: > > First Generation Firebird-L Mailing List > = ......................................................................... > Duane, > > Wilkes Barre/Hazelton is about 1 1/2 hours for me (Pottstown). I know = the > area pretty well up there in North PA, went to school in Bloomsburg. = OK, > updated PA contingency
(back) Subject: Re: PA Birds-Rich From: "Duane Benedict" <teachers@epix.net> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 09:37:44 -0500 Rich: I remembered that you were in that area. I asked because I know that the other areas listed were generally less than 2 hours away and Hazleton is about 1.5 hours from my house. I still remember the daily drive I did when student teaching. (agggh! never again). Anyway, an acquaintance of mine lives in Hazleton and saw 1st gen in a car show last summer and called to see if it was mine. I think he said it was a yellow '69. Neither were mine. Mine is red coupe w/ a black top. Stuart's -- the one outside of Conygham, connecting Haz. to I-80, right? -- would be a great place for a list meet, don't you think? Maybe we could recruit a couple of new list members. -- Duane ---------------------------------------------------------- Ephesians 2:8,9 http://home.epix.net/~teachers See the baby at http://home.epix.net/~teachers/baby.html ---------------------------------------------------------- Rich Durham wrote: > > First Generation Firebird-L Mailing List > = ......................................................................... > P.S. Duane, I'm about 9 miles away from Hazleton, and about 10 miles = from > White haven. Also, gotta ask, you don't by any chance have a white car = do > you? At a drive-in burger/root beer place by Hazleton called Stuart's = last > years, I met a guy driving a white coupe , 69 I think. Might have been a > 68. It was stock except for changing the carb/manifold and exhaust. just > wondering. > > > Rich Durham > Weatherly, Pa. > '68 Firebird > Stock 350
(back) Subject: Re: Cheviac or Ponchette? From: <hugoba@apcom.com> Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 07:53:54 -0800 (PST) I was going to do something similar to my 69 by using the engine and 6 = speed trany from a 97 TA that I bought salvaged. The only reason I didn't (haven't) done it is because it turns out tha the = 97 is fixable so for ~4k I'll have a nice late model thrasher and I'll = probably go with a 455 in the 69. However, having a late model TPI engine in a first gen would be neat and different (there's a few out there) so I say go for it Rowan. As far as the possition, I would say go back as far as you can since = you'll probably have to have the DS modified regardless of where you mouont the = engine and not giving yourself enough room up front could be trouble getting = other things mounted. My $.02 Hugo > From Firebird-L@oakmediacreations.com Mon Mar 5 04:17:21 2001 > X-Originating-IP: [152.163.207.193] > From: "Tom Grzywacz" <ban67shee@hotmail.com> > To: Firebird-L@oakmediacreations.com > Subject: Re: Cheviac or Ponchette? > Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 06:23:50 -0500 > Mime-Version: 1.0 > X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Mar 2001 11:23:50.0541 (UTC) > FILETIME=3D[C0BFB3D0:01C0A566] > > First Generation Firebird-L Mailing List > = ......................................................................... > > d) sratch my head and stand there like an idiot? > > I would go with D, and you said it first, so I don't feel too bad. I = guess > sometimes practice outweighs theory. To each his own. I say sell the = vette > engine and trans for 3K, add $1000 to 1500 extra for mods (completely = new > fuel system, motor/tranny mounts, driveshaft mods and ps/alt bracket > reconfiguration) and 100 hours trying to figure out wiring. Take the = $4000 > and buy yourself a real engine..400 or 455 and get a TBI/fuel injection = and > 200/700R4 if thats your goal. Just my opinion..CH&%Y engines in ANY = Pontiac > is a disgrace to the car. I believe when you are finally done, all that = time > and money spent will be a dissappointment. Not knocking you Rowan. I am = a > realist, and sometimes great ideas are far more work/trouble than thier > worth. But then again, without new concepts, we would stagnate. I guess = I > have reformed into a purist. Any counter strikes? > > Tom > > > = ......................................................................... > Yesterday, a friend and I went and bought a wrecked '86 Corvette the = guy > we got it from had taken the hood and fenders for his car, and said it > didn't run,but he had started it on carb cleaner, and it sounded good. = We > gave him the thousand bucks he was asking, and he dropped it off at the = shop > my friend works at around 11;00 am. We found a batery, checked the oil = and > water, and plugged in the MAF sensor from the car I ws driving. A few > cranks for oiling,then a puff of carb cleaner, and VROOOM! We bunjie'd = down > the battery and did a few laps around the parking lot. Fast and smooth, > probably a better car than mine. we had a good laugh at the two = previous > owners not having figured out how to start it, and got to work. > My friend needed some interior and top parts for his 'vette, so he = busted > into the dash and interior while I got busy in the engine bay. > By 7;30, dead tired and soaking wet from the rain, we were done. > Engine(350TPI) and trans(700R4) with complete(and uncut) wiring harness. > the cleanlieness of the motor(inside anyway) and paint marks on the = trans > indicate they were not original(it ran very well...I'm guessing 40-50K = on > the motor). sosension assemblys and interior were removed, and there = was > not much left. We learned you can cut safety glas with a Sawzall! > Fiberglass cuts even faster. Anyway, I ended up with the motor and = tranny, > radiator, and A/C. I have an A/C firewall for a '68, so I think that is = the > way for me to go. > A bit of cleaning, maybe some fresh gaskets, and remove some duff from = the > wiring harness, and I'll be due for some major decision making. > Do I: > a) set the motor as far back as I can without the HEI hitting anything? > b) position the tranny to work with my driveshaft, and go from there? > c) just put it where the mounts are easy? > d) sratch my head and stand there like an idiot? > I intend to have functional Ram Air, but probably through the grille. > A mass airflow sensor wll have to be found, hopefuly for under $200, I = know > Autozone has some real cheap ones. > The computer may mount above the glovebox. > I'm bummed I have to go to Arziona for a few days around next weekend > instead of working on this, but Its grandma's birthday, and I wouldn't = miss > it. Wish I could take my Bird tho. > Well, thats the state of my project, and I am pretty excited. > Rowan *68 lurking > > _________________________________________________________________ > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com >
(back) Subject: Re: Car in a barn From: "ROY D LUMSDEN" <rlumsden@tampabay.rr.com> Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:59:57 -0500 I love those "car in barn" stories and am glad to finally hear from some = who "got there first"! Remember, the console is the same as a 67 Camaro. Maybe that'll help widen your search. Good Luck, Roy ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Learner" <davidlearner@yahoo.com> To: <Firebird-L@oakmediacreations.com> Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 7:59 AM Subject: Car in a barn > First Generation Firebird-L Mailing List > = ......................................................................... > Just thought I would share a good "car in a barn" story with everyone. > Since my '69 convertible is still in pieces, I am always checking the > classifieds and hoping to find another nice first gen firebird to drive > while completing my restoration project. Last Thursday I found an ad > for a '67 Firebird convertible with 455, 400 THD trans, new interior, > new top, $2500. Needless to say, I called quickly and often until I > reached the seller. After he described the car and confirmed that the > price was not a misprint I went to see the car immediately. He has had > the car 20 years, it has been stored and he finally decided to sell it. > He said that he only put a few miles on it since he had the 455 > installed. It was originally a 326 car and has the flat hood, column > shifter, bucket seats, no console, manual drum brakes, power steering > and manual top. He sold it to me for 2K$ and I had it towed home > yesterday. I am planning to go completely through the brake system > (cheap insurance), and should have it on the road soon. Still has the > factory orangeish-red color, white top and black standard interior. The > carpet, seat covers and top were new several years ago and appear to > just need some cleaning. I think the paint will look fine with a good > compounding and waxing. The tires are totally dry rotted, but I have a > full set that are not needed on the '69 right now. My wife and son are > also very excited about this new addition to the fleet! Does anybody > have a first gen (automatic) floor shift and console for sale? I would > like to switch from the column shifter to a console at some point. I am > delighted to find this car and expect to be driving it soon. > David Learner > '67 & '69 Convertibles >
(back) Subject: Re: Cheviac or Ponchette? From: "ROY D LUMSDEN" <rlumsden@tampabay.rr.com> Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:05:28 -0500 Rowan, Congratulations on a great find. I'm currently working on a 68 Camaro and using the 350 T.P.I. motor, tranny, and wiring harness from a 89 GTA Firebird. Drop me a line and I'll let you in on some of the details of = your questions. By the way, this will make three of us on the F-list who are doing or planning on this conversion. Roy ----- Original Message ----- From: "x1r1 x" <x1r1@hotmail.com> To: <Firebird-L@oakmediacreations.com> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 4:23 AM Subject: Cheviac or Ponchette? > First Generation Firebird-L Mailing List > = ......................................................................... > Yesterday, a friend and I went and bought a wrecked '86 Corvette the guy > we got it from had taken the hood and fenders for his car, and said it > didn't run,but he had started it on carb cleaner, and it sounded good. We > gave him the thousand bucks he was asking, and he dropped it off at the shop > my friend works at around 11;00 am. We found a batery, checked the oil and > water, and plugged in the MAF sensor from the car I ws driving. A few > cranks for oiling,then a puff of carb cleaner, and VROOOM! We bunjie'd down > the battery and did a few laps around the parking lot. Fast and smooth, > probably a better car than mine. we had a good laugh at the two = previous > owners not having figured out how to start it, and got to work. > My friend needed some interior and top parts for his 'vette, so he busted > into the dash and interior while I got busy in the engine bay. > By 7;30, dead tired and soaking wet from the rain, we were done. > Engine(350TPI) and trans(700R4) with complete(and uncut) wiring harness. > the cleanlieness of the motor(inside anyway) and paint marks on the = trans > indicate they were not original(it ran very well...I'm guessing 40-50K = on > the motor). sosension assemblys and interior were removed, and there = was > not much left. We learned you can cut safety glas with a Sawzall! > Fiberglass cuts even faster. Anyway, I ended up with the motor and tranny, > radiator, and A/C. I have an A/C firewall for a '68, so I think that is the > way for me to go. > A bit of cleaning, maybe some fresh gaskets, and remove some duff from the > wiring harness, and I'll be due for some major decision making. > Do I: > a) set the motor as far back as I can without the HEI hitting anything? > b) position the tranny to work with my driveshaft, and go from there? > c) just put it where the mounts are easy? > d) sratch my head and stand there like an idiot? > I intend to have functional Ram Air, but probably through the grille. > A mass airflow sensor wll have to be found, hopefuly for under $200, I know > Autozone has some real cheap ones. > The computer may mount above the glovebox. > I'm bummed I have to go to Arziona for a few days around next weekend > instead of working on this, but Its grandma's birthday, and I wouldn't miss > it. Wish I could take my Bird tho. > Well, thats the state of my project, and I am pretty excited. > Rowan *68 lurking > >
(back) Subject: Fuel Line question From: "Keith Donmoyer" <kadonny@hotmail.com> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 12:41:47 -0500 My curiosity is peaked, I was helping another fellow lister with the = routing of my fuel lines today, and we came across a question. On my 68 there are = two lines leading into the fuel pump. One feeds in to the fuel pump from behind the rear of the crossmember and is a much larger line and I assume = is the main fuel feed. The second line is a smaller diameter line that runs across the front of the crossmember and also feeds into the fuel pump from = the front. What is the purpose of this second line? Is this correct? Is = this a vapor line or a secondary fuel line? Thanks in advance, I already checked the archives and FAQ Keith 68 H.O. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
(back) Subject: Re: 1969 Firebird Trans Am for sale. [Details] From: "Pete D" <pjd805@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 09:49:15 -0800 (PST) Kent, Nice try... That would mean the brake booster and the a/c - heater unit are on the wrong side. Anyone familiar with the configuration of the Buick/ Olds accessories?? Maybe it's not even a Poncho Motor. PeteJD [69 400/400] Subject: Re: 1969 Firebird Trans Am for sale. [Details] From: <Kalchemy@aol.com> Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 22:12:28 EST In a message dated 03/02/2001 8:47:31 PM Pacific Standard Time, pjd805@yahoo.com writes: << http://www.southernmotors.com/69ta.htm >> Regarding the reverse image of the engine, they shot a picture probably using slide film and printed it backwards as everything is backwards in the picture. Or they just printed the negative backwards. Kent Luttrell 68 400 rag top __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
(back) Subject: 400 with a bent valve From: "larry diede" <ldiede@bangkok.com> Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:22:07 -0700 List members, I have run across a 400 engine that has the #8 intake valve bent. There = are little or no marks on the piston top. The spring retainer has = markings where the rocker rode on it. The keepers were laying on top on = the head beside the retainer. I am wondering what sequence of events took place for this to occur? Can anyone help me figure out what may have happened? What causes a bent = valve? Thanks, Larry ----------------------------------------------- Thailand's BEST Free Email at Bangkok.com - http://mail.bangkok.com
(back) Subject: Re: Fuel Line question From: "Frank Zeller" <fzeller@tri-austin.com> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 12:22:32 -0600 Vapor return line. AC equipped V8's and 350 HO and 400 Birds have them. >>> kadonny@hotmail.com 03/05/01 11:41AM >>> First Generation Firebird-L Mailing List .......................................................................... My curiosity is peaked, I was helping another fellow lister with the = routing of my fuel lines today, and we came across a question. On my 68 there are two lines leading into the fuel pump. One feeds in to the fuel pump from behind the rear of the crossmember and is a much larger line and I assume = is the main fuel feed. The second line is a smaller diameter line that runs across the front of the crossmember and also feeds into the fuel pump from = the front. What is the purpose of this second line? Is this correct? Is this a vapor line or a secondary fuel line? Thanks in advance, I already checked the archives and FAQ Keith 68 H.O.