First Generation Firebird-L Mailing List 1967 & 1968 Firebirds by "by way of Geoff Martin, <Geoff@firstgenfirebird.org>" <WSherr round or "D" ports? by "Gary Patrick" <Gary@tcworks.net> Bad English No by "Gary Patrick" <Gary@tcworks.net> Re: Will a 455 fit by "Bob Cisneros" <Bob.Cisneros@EBay.Sun.COM> Re: Engine & Trans removal - thanks by "Bob Cisneros" <Bob.Cisneros@EBay.Sun.COM> Re: 4 barrel intake swap by "Bob Cisneros" <Bob.Cisneros@EBay.Sun.COM> Re: 1967 & 1968 Firebirds by "Brian Sargent" <bjsbird1@yahoo.com> Brake proportioning valve by "Geoff Swavley" <geoffs@radx.net> Re: 1967 & 1968 Firebirds by "Doug" <dcharnley@mediaone.net> Re: Trim rings and center caps for 15x7 Rallye II's by "Bob Cisneros" <Bob.Cisneros@EBay.Sun.COM> Re: Engine & Trans removal - thanks by "John Wern" <jwern@gw.total-web.net> Re: Brake proportioning valve by "AL ROJAS" <amr@appsig.com> Re: My car on First Gen by "Glenn Uettwiller" <birdman@gdi.net> windscreen rubber by "Binty" <binty_one@yahoo.com> Owner Show Pages Updated (1-16-2001) by "Geoff Martin" <Geoff@firstgenfirebird.org>
(back) Subject: 1967 & 1968 Firebirds From: "by way of Geoff Martin, <Geoff@firstgenfirebird.org>" <WSherrow@aol.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 15:10:57 -0500 Hi Geoff, I tried to send this to the list but wouldn't take, so if you can pass it on to check Jimmy Means web sit: http://www.Ordernet.com/Mean_Pontiac/index.html to get the latest on his resin 1967 Bird and Revells' 1968 Bird. Thanks, Dee Sherrow
(back) Subject: round or "D" ports? From: "Gary Patrick" <Gary@tcworks.net> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 17:14:47 -0500 Subject: "d"port or "round" port From: "danny" <dannyboylll@qwest.net> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 00:37:26 -0700 ok i am getting more confused by the minute i have a set of aluminum edelbrock heads "performer rpm heads. "the 1800$ ones in any jegs or = summit catalog. do these heads have round port or D port exhaust holes???? i can't seem to figure this because both my aluminum heads and a set of cast iron stock heads both have ports that look D shaped to me my heads have the flat part of the "D" on the bottom of the exhaust port, and the round part of the D in the top. the other ones have the "D" arranged with their flat sides togther (center ports) i have whipped up a quick and dirty pict of what i am talking about. if anyone wants to mail me off list i wil send it. Edelbrock claims that these heads (my aluminum ones) have their exhaust ports "patterned after RA IV exhaust ports." in the ames catalog they = sell manifolds that will fit RA IV ROUND PORT heads. now here is the = kicker... edelbrock clamis that their heads are D port heads!!!!!!! so... that = means that pontiac either made both round and D port RA IV heads, or someone = made a mistake in their catalogs. either way i need some definite info on weather my heads are round or D port. -danny 68 400 new mex. Danny, I know this sounds confusing to you but both Ames an Edelbrock are correct. The Alum. heads you have are round port heads with the port floor = flattened to the shaped of a lazy D. You must use RAII or IV or headers or exhaust manifolds as the PMD "D" port have a different port and bolt pattern. I imagine that Edelbrock will engineer some sort of headers to use on = these wonderful heads in the near distant future. Gary
(back) Subject: Bad English No From: "Gary Patrick" <Gary@tcworks.net> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 17:32:47 -0500 Hope you manage to follow my bad english... /Niklas 68 Coupe I ll bet you English is far better than anyone on the lists Swedish. I commend anyone that commands more than one language. I have trouble with English my self and it my primary language. So how many birds are there in the Scandinavian countries? Gary in central Florida
(back) Subject: Re: Will a 455 fit From: "Bob Cisneros" <Bob.Cisneros@EBay.Sun.COM> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 14:40:22 -0800 (PST) Marty Provost writes: >I have an opportunity to buy a 455 out of a bonneville. Anybody know = what >(if any) modifications I will need to do to get it to fit? This is a very simple swap. Since 1967, all Pontiac V8s have the same external dimensions, and will readily swap parts like intake manifolds, timing chains, and oil pans. The exception is the much maligned 301. As another list member mentioned, the Feb. 2001 issue of Car Craft has a brief article on swapping a 326 for a 455. It contains some good photos of the differences between the 1969 and earlier motor mount bosses/holes and the 1970 and later version. There is also a good description of water pump and pulley issues that need to be addressed. The article would apply to those of you with 350s and 400s as well. But, essentially, the easiest way to do the swap is to take the timing cover, water pump, pulleys, and accessory brackets off your present engine, and transfer these to the 455. The same applies to your exhaust manifolds. Now the 455 will just bolt into place like it grew there. Some other issues not mentioned, or only lightly covered in the article are: -Flywheel/flex plate. While the majority of Pontiacs in the late 60s and early 70s used the same sized crank shaft flange, the late 50s and later 70s car are different. In fact, there are up to 5 different diameters in the Pontiac engine family. So, measure the rear flange on your 455 and check to make sure that your original flywheel/flex plate will bolt on, or use the one that came with the 455 if possible. -Manifold sealing. Intake ports on Pontiac heads changed roughly about 1972, so if this engine is later than that, you'll need to get the correct gaskets to seal your intake manifold. In the Car Craft article, they used some thin metal to block off the heat passage crossover, which is the area that will most likely leak. This is assuming you will be using a 1972 or earlier intake manifold. -Engine weight. While we don't have any exact figures on engine weights, it is logical to assume that a 455 weighs more than a 326, perhaps. You may have to get new front springs for your car if once the bigger engine is in and your front suspension bottoms out. -Water pump/pulleys/ accessory brackets/timing covers. Pontiac in it's infinite wisdom, changed the design of these front engine dress parts several times, and mixing these parts leads to poor pulley alignment, thrown belts, and premature baldness. But to give them credit, the blocks themselves are pretty universal. Whatever you do, use all the parts from either the donor Bonneville, or your present engine. The 67 and 68 Pontiacs (as well as the earlier engines) used an 8 bolt timing cover and pump. In '69, they went to an 11 bolt cover and pump, but had two different pump designs, each a different height. This means that the pulleys and brackets are different for each pump type. The '67 and '68 items have different part numbers also, and they may be incompatible as well. But I don't know for certain. That's why you'll stay sane longer if you source these parts from just one car. -Engine mount bosses. The 1969 and earlier engine blocks were cast with two drilled and tapped bosses or holes for the engine mounts, along the oil pan mounting flange. In 1970, because many of the new cars had undergone chassis redesigns, the new blocks were cast with 5 bosses to allow the engines to be mounted in either earlier (pre 1969) or later chassis. Some of the blocks cast in the '70s don't have all of these holes either drilled or tapped. Others do. If your 455 doesn't, it shouldn't be too hard a job to drill and tap the required holes. Use a correct engine bracket for a guide. The other recourse is to use engine change brackets available from Year One, Performance Years, and AMES. -Bob Cisneros San Jose, CA 1968 Convertible bob.cisneros@EBay.Sun.COM
(back) Subject: Re: Engine & Trans removal - thanks From: "Bob Cisneros" <Bob.Cisneros@EBay.Sun.COM> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 14:51:21 -0800 (PST) Dale Barkla writes: >I hear where you're coming from regarding >changes in weight distribution when I start taking things apart. I've = got >4 stands rated at 6 ton each and a big mother of a rolling Jack....and = I'm >pretty anal about safety..I'll prop the body up with bricks and use the 4 = >stands on the rails, 2 at each end. Two years ago, when I began the restification of my car, I removed the front sheetmetal, subframe, interior, and eventually the rear suspension from my car. I tried to be very careful in making sure the body was secure and safe to work on and under. I would not trust my life to a stack of bricks. I'm sure you'll understand how risky that can be. Once the engine was out of the car (I pulled it once the sheet metal was removed from the car), the front subframe was very easy to move around because I'd left the suspension on. So it was like a big wheel barrow. I could flip it over easily to work on the bottom side while preparing it for painting. Very handy at times. I spent days with a wirewheel, grinders, and hand sanding that guy. Don't forget to chisel off the welding slag that the assembly line guys left. They were remarkably sloppy (if this is a concourse resto, forget this step). -Bob Cisneros San Jose, CA 1968 Convertible bob.cisneros@Ebay.Sun.COM
(back) Subject: Re: 4 barrel intake swap From: "Bob Cisneros" <Bob.Cisneros@EBay.Sun.COM> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 15:17:25 -0800 (PST) Steve Manktelow writes: > Thanks for the info Bob, > > Thanks for the info > It was mentioned that the car is a 68, but not very clearly. Can you > tell me what I would have to do to an EGR intake work with my > application. Will I be able to use the intake that Larry offered. I must have missed the part where you mentioned the year of your car, and I certainly didn't see the message about the intake someone offered. But I do have an answer for you. If you decide to go with an EGR intake, just remove the EGR valve, and then fabricate a block-off plate for the opening. You can use a piece of plate metal, at least a quarter inch in thickness to avoid warping. You can use the base of the EGR valve as a template for both the shape of the plate, and the placement for the bolt holes. Paint the plate with a high temp paint, and then perhaps top coat with the correct Pontiac blue to get it to seem less obvious. In another posting today, I talk about a port missmatch issue with late heads and early intake manifolds. I think that going the other way, late intake and early heads, you just need the appropriate gasket and you should have no sealing problems. The last engine gasket set (Felpro) I got had both types. I'd guess that the typical intake replacement gasket set will have both as well. -Bob Cisneros San Jose, CA 1968 Convertible bob.cisneros@Ebay.Sun.COM
(back) Subject: Re: 1967 & 1968 Firebirds From: "Brian Sargent" <bjsbird1@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 15:29:38 -0800 (PST) Geoff, I tried to go to this web site but it wouldn't let me. When I knocked off everything after the .com it gave me a blank page with a heading og "Under Construction". Just in case you wanted to know. Brian 69 conv. --- WSherrow@aol.com wrote: > First Generation Firebird-L Mailing List > .......................................................................... > Hi Geoff, > > I tried to send this to the list but wouldn't take, > so if you can pass it > on > to check Jimmy Means web sit: > http://www.Ordernet.com/Mean_Pontiac/index.html > to get the latest on his resin 1967 Bird and > Revells' 1968 Bird. > > Thanks, > > Dee Sherrow > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
(back) Subject: Brake proportioning valve From: "Geoff Swavley" <geoffs@radx.net> Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 11:04:04 +1100 Hi people, I'm arriving in S.F. in 7 days and am hoping to find a brake proportioning valve for my Ram Air 1 1968 Firebird 400 (some scumbag knocked off the one from the car while it was in the body shop). does anyone have any clues as to where I could possibly find one while I'm over there. thanks geoffs :-)
(back) Subject: Re: 1967 & 1968 Firebirds From: "Doug" <dcharnley@mediaone.net> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 19:30:44 -0500 Here ya go. Went there, got this. http://www.0rdernet.com/Mean_Pontiac/index.html Brian Sargent wrote: > First Generation Firebird-L Mailing List > = ......................................................................... > Geoff, > I tried to go to this web site but it wouldn't > let me. When I knocked off everything after the .com > it gave me a blank page with a heading og "Under > Construction". Just in case you wanted to know. > Brian > 69 conv. > > --- WSherrow@aol.com wrote: > > First Generation Firebird-L Mailing List > > > = ......................................................................... > > Hi Geoff, > > > > I tried to send this to the list but wouldn't take, > > so if you can pass it > > on > > to check Jimmy Means web sit: > > http://www.Ordernet.com/Mean_Pontiac/index.html > > to get the latest on his resin 1967 Bird and > > Revells' 1968 Bird. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Dee Sherrow > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
(back) Subject: Re: Trim rings and center caps for 15x7 Rallye II's From: "Bob Cisneros" <Bob.Cisneros@EBay.Sun.COM> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 16:38:38 -0800 (PST) Chuck writes: >Are the trim rings all the same size or are they specific (i.e 14" or = 15") >to the rim size? I found a good deal on a set of 5 15x7 Rallye II's (code >JJ) without trim rings or center caps. Trim rings for 15 inch wheels are corrispondingly larger in diameter than 14 inch trim rings, so they do not interchange. >Where is a good source for the trim rings and center caps (besides eBay)? >Has anyone bought them from Ames or CI? How do you like the quality? Both are available from AMES and CI. I bought the caps from AMES and was very happy with them. The mounting system for their aftermarket caps is superior to the GM part, so they will not fall off, and are impossible to steal without first removing the wheel. There are also two types of aftermarket caps. One is a chrome plated plastic, which is less costly, and a metal cap. While more expensive, it should also last longer. By the end of bidding, most of the caps on ebay seem to go for the same price as retail or sometimes higher if a real bidding frenzy happens, which often does. And then you don't know their origin, and have no customer support. Another list member was very disappointed with the quality of the trim rings from CI, so perhaps AMES would be a safer bet. But none of the 15 inch rings have the crisp angle that is correct for the '67 thru '69 look. They are the softer look common to the '70s rally II wheel. >Incidentally, I can't find a JJ code for Rallye II's. What car did these >originally belong to? The two parts books I have don't list a JJ code for 15x7. This is not to be confused with the wheel type JJ which I think is an industry code for standard offset wheels. I'd play it safe and check both the bolt pattern (you need 4.75") and the backspacing. Anywhere between 4" and 4.5" will work, depending on the tire size you want. Oh, and make sure that they are in fact 15x7. If the wheels are out of town, and you must rely upon the seller to check this out for you, agree to buy them on the condition that they are both the back spacing and bolt pattern you want, and that the seller will agree to take them back if they turn out to be something else. -Bob Cisneros San Jose, CA 1968 Convertible bob.cisneros@Ebay.Sun.COM
(back) Subject: Re: Engine & Trans removal - thanks From: "John Wern" <jwern@gw.total-web.net> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 20:13:14 -0500 Yea! I did the same thing. Lots of blood in that firebird. Lots of smut up your nose Dirt, grime, crap in your finger nails. I'm with you. It = makes me want to cry man. John. -----Original Message----- From: Bob Cisneros <Bob.Cisneros@Ebay.Sun.COM> To: Firebird-L@oakmediacreations.com <Firebird-L@oakmediacreations.com> Date: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 7:33 PM Subject: Re: Engine & Trans removal - thanks >I spent days with a wirewheel, grinders, and hand sanding >that guy. Don't forget to chisel off the welding slag that >the assembly line guys left. They were remarkably sloppy >(if this is a concourse resto, forget this step). > > >-Bob Cisneros San Jose, CA > 1968 Convertible > > bob.cisneros@Ebay.Sun.COM >>
(back) Subject: Re: Brake proportioning valve From: "AL ROJAS" <amr@appsig.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 17:03:22 -0800 An early welcome to CA Geoff! I don't know how a Ram Air car would be different from a stock '68 = Firebird with disk brakes. Try Steve's Camaros. He's in San Bruno near the SF airport and about as = close to SF you're going to get. 1197 San Mateo Ave. 650-873-1890 If you're going to be further south, you can call GM Sports Salvage in San Jose. 1964 Oakland Rd, San Jose. 408-432-8498. www.gmsportssalvage.com The other guys in the area may have some ideas. We should try to meet up = with you. Send us your schedule. Al
(back) Subject: Re: My car on First Gen From: "Glenn Uettwiller" <birdman@gdi.net> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 21:13:41 -0500 Dim, you're asking the wrong question. The proper question is can anybody prove that they DID build Firebirds in Canada in 1968? Actually, it is no secret that Firebirds were built in only 3 assembly plants in the first generation. Pontiac started Firebird production at the Lordstown, Ohio assembly plant for the 1967 model year. For the 1968 models, they continued building at Lordstown, and added a second assembly line at Van Nuys, California. Then for 1969, they added the third line at Norwood, Ohio. I found this information on page 68 of "The Fabulous Firebird" by Michael Lamm, published in 1979, in a sidebar. It continues that the 1970-1/2 and 1971 Firebirds were built at Van Nuys and Norwood, and for the 1972 model only Norwood produced Firebirds. However, that plant was shut down for 6 months due to the "strike of 1972". Some 1100 partly built cars were supposedly scrapped bacause of upcoming 1973 bumper laws. The Norwood plant continued as the only source of Firebirds util the 1978 model, when they again added the Van Nuys facility. Since my copy of this book is a first-run edition copyrighted 1979, there is no info about the third generation car except a couple of rough sketches. I seem to remember though that there was big news in the automotive world when the fourth generation cars were getting prepared to be introduced for 1993. My recollection is all the noise was that for the FIRST TIME, Firebirds and Camaros were to be built in CANADA, at the St. Therese plant in Quebec. Automotive enthusiasts were up-in-arms about if the beloved F-car could then still be considered "an American car"! I'm sure yhey meant US-built. Glenn aka birdman dim wrote: > Clayton, > > I still am not convinced that Firebirds wer made in Canada in 1968, > can anybody prove me wrong? I think my car is no different than it > it were bought in the U.S. > > Let me know, > Thanks, > Dim.
(back) Subject: windscreen rubber From: "Binty" <binty_one@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 17:40:27 -0800 (PST) Hey Listers! Does anyone have a helpful suggestions as to where i could get a rear windscreen rubber for a '59 El Camino? I know it's not a 'Bird, but still a pretty cool ride! TIA Binty 69 Coupe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
(back) Subject: Owner Show Pages Updated (1-16-2001) From: "Geoff Martin" <Geoff@firstgenfirebird.org> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 20:57:08 -0500 Subject: Owner Show Pages Updated (1-16-2001) Added some more owners today to the First Generation Firebird Owners' Show Pages: Andrew Brown 1969 Originally Limelight Green Firebird 350 Convertible (http://FirstGenFirebird.org/show/closeup.mv?CarID=3D117) ------------------- Enjoy - Geoff '68 Mayfair Maize Firebird 350 Convertible (http://FirstGenFirebird.org/show/closeup.mv?CarID=3D46) (Geoff@firstgenfirebird.org) More information about adding your car or link to the owner pages: (http://FirstGenFirebird.org/firebird/owners/info.html) (Make sure to drop the "(" and ")" when using the URLs)